2 years ago
Friday, September 19, 2008
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- Mottel
- Rabbi by education, Journalist by profession, Blogger by choice. Torah, Chassidus & the Social Web. Appreciator of: craft beer, fresh coffee, Scotch or Bourbon, brewed tea, photography, art and travel. Note: Views and opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of my employers
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29 comments:
Marigolds and tomatoes. My kind of gardener.
Nice way to remember your grandfather.
Uh... that was a quick change of heart.
I just wanted to say, (if you are talking bout Shidduchim) that it may not be that the born Lubav. think of you or any Baal Teshuva as inferior, it just may be they see it as, different. Coming from different backgrounds etc...and many think that it is better to marry someone who is more like yourself, more common ground, to relate better.... Am I making any sense to you?
Okay now you can delete this if you want to...
Also, I understood what you said that you feel you aren't trusted in Yiddishkeit stuff as opposed to (made-up) secular...
In a way, you are right, it is so. But again not because you are thought of as inferior, but just coming from a diff. place. Almost like, if I took up photography and even bought an expensive camera, people still wouldn't trust me and/or hire me to photograph them, they will call you way faster, because you have the lineage of photography and of course your own talent in addition.
Ah, just hold your head up high and all is well.
Different doesn't apply to Jews -the making of any great person in Yiddishkiet was always based on their status as a talmid chocham -their own personal struggles and goals -learn torah and even a Mamzer can be great.
I'm not talking about bochurim who have been sitting in Hadar Hatorah for the last two years . . . A person that went through the same misivta and zal, was sent on shlichus, got smicha et al like every other Lubavitcher Bochur should be no different. It's Bull Shit -plain and simple.
Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Meir were the children of Geirim. But every Misnagid in kiruv says that, let's talk Chabad!
R' Itche Der Masmid, R' Chonya Marazov, and R' Elchonan Shagolov all came from Litvishe families.
R' Simon Jacobson was a Gruzini and the famed mashpia of Tomchei Temimim R' Shileim Kuratin originally came as bochur in shorts, thinking that he was going to Gymnasium (university)!
All of this besides the dozens of ehrliche families that come from Poilishe (Hendel, Garlitzky, Weinberg) and American (Hecht, Altein etc.) backgrounds!
Today anyone of these families is considered shpitz . . .
People may consider it separate but equal, but any excuse to discriminate between Jews based wholly on subjective terms of background is reprehensible and anti-torah.
Talents are not passed down to children -if I lift weights, my children will not be born with big muscles. My grandfather made dentures and my father mixes sound -I have no clue how to do either . . .
A photographer is hired based on skill, a writer on talent -a shidduch should be made on personality and character, not the type of mud his alter zeide walked in or where he pished.
Where he pished is highly important, didn't you know that??
You are being super sensitive right now, and rightfully so, however, you should understand that yes, some people believe that having similar backgrounds just makes married a life a tad easier. There are enough differences as it is (when two people decide to build a home).
So again it is not inferior, better or shmetter, just different.
There is one person who told me that she actually does NOT want someone whose "zeide pished in Nevel" she wants someone who grew up like her and her family, where the parents became b't as teenagers and NOW they are a very integrated regular lub. family.
So it works both ways.
One has to know who we are and match to that and only to that.
But back to Emunah. The One Above has it all planned out.
I am not arguing with you here, just trying to help you not be so frustrated with a situation that you think is ugly.
It's not a new sensitivity -but it was exacerbated the other day when someone asked if I had had counseling for the divorce . . . I wanted to ask if he had had counseling for being born -it's a much more traumatic experience.
What is a similar background? I went through the entire Lubavitcher system -I have almost nothing in common with the BTs that come out of Mayanot, Morristown etc.
Is there any statistical data to support the claim that there is a cultural gap that is so
There is a bigger cultural divide between Americans and Brits, let alone Frenchies or Israelis -which while people have their preferences, which is fair, there is no Carte Blanche institutionalized discrimination like there is by someone of my background.
Would you feel that someone who has a 'special needs' sibling should only marry someone else with a special needs sibling? The child of shliach should only marry another child of a shliach -someone who grew up on shlichus has a very different set of experiences from someone who grew up in CH!
Such reasons are (in the first case) bad science and (in the second) arbitrary stupid.
I have faith in Hashem, but I also know that He gives people free choice, and that people are more then able to use that free choice to make each other needlessly miserable.
Just to clarify -what is Bashert is Bashert, no questions asked. But towing the party line to support an Apartheid Chabad is reprehensible!
BS"D
The attitude of apartheid is there but it is getting better and seems to be confined to a handful of families.
And those families will, if they keep up their nonsense, end up being so inbred that medical disaster will L"A result (or, more likely, Dor Yeshorim results will hopefully preclude a lot of inbreeding and force a more open attitude).
But I know of so many matches across background lines - children of a ger and a BT marrying into families related to the Alter Rebbe, Sefardim from France and E"Y marrying into established families etc etc.
I only know of one person who seems to have this hangup when it comes to BT's in general being "accepted" and I consider it an eccentricity because this person is so decent and welcoming to everyone; it is just a feeling either of superiority, wanting to hold on to something, or of fear.
BS"D
I wanted to ask if he had had counseling for being born -it's a much more traumatic experience.
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I would have been less polite and asked him whether he had counseling to help him become less of a schmuck!
Was this a shadchan (sheker diber, kesef notel)? Sometimes they have no one so they ask questions to weed out all but the easiest cases, the ones they can make their money on very quickly.
-it was a question of an individual referred to me by a very caring shadchan who was rather apologetic for asking.
BS"D
So the shadchan was asking on behalf of this individual? Then the individual is the one who needs counseling for post-traumatic schmuck disorder!
Now you are throwing in another issue. Well, being born in itself is not an emotional trauma, if there were no complications. But being brought up - is. So yes, everyone can benefit from therapy. However, you have to understand, and be mature about this, divorce is a very traumatic emotional issue. And the more one will tell me, they were not affected, the more I will believe they were.
Therapy, (with a good therapist) can help sort through issues. Even if you think you don't have any. History repeats itself. And the way one behaves is usually a result of his past. If one did not grow up with a good example, then there is a big chance he will not BE a good example and will repeat the mistakes he grew up, subconsciously.
There is too much to write now, but b'kitzur, when one chooses a partner FOR LIFE one wants to make sure that the rough past wont be a hinderance for the smoothness of the future. Now, again, FOR SURE everyone has past issues, (and therefore counseling is a good idea) BUT when someone hears, "oh from divorce.." then that is a very boilet red flag...
Am I making any sense to you?
BS"D
Mottel, you bring up valid points that can not be disputed... But, I think what "passerby" is trying to do, is to make you think a bit further... These are just my thoughts on the matters discussed above. Please note, when I say "you", i do not mean you directly, rather a general "you"...
You may not have the same background as a typical BT- you've been "through the system", so you're not a Hadar or a Morristown bochur. That though, is not the point, because no girl has been through those yeshivos either.
No girl has been through any Yeshiva. The Yeshiva system for the bochurim and the system for the girls is very different. So to begin with, going through "the system' doesn't mean that the bochur and maidle have been through the same things.
It's not going "through the system" that makes people come from the same background. It's something far deeper.
It's an education instilled within you from conception. It's the driving force that nurtures you until you are old enough to fully choose who you are and who you want to become.
Forget "the system".
It's the home that makes all the difference.
When you go to a Lubavitcher's home in California or one in Illinois, you feel you are in the same home. That is why a bochur from France and a maidle from Brazil can get married... home life is so the same, despite the outside mentality... There is an air, a "sevivah", an environment that seems to breath G-dliness and Chassidishkiet.
It is a home in which the father and mother not only give over life lessons and midos(which all parents can b"H do), they also give over a living legacy.
In a frum home, children look up to their parents as their personal rav and mechaneches. When they have a question in halacha, all they have to say is "tatty, what do i do?". Their mother can point them to the right page in the siddur, she can tell them what is allowed and not allowed in the home, what is kosher, pareve, or trief-in food and all things.
In the home of a BT family? It's amazing. It's a place of constant light, growth, creativity. It's a fusion of art and culture that is suddenly uplifted and transformed to G-dliness.
And yet, there is a role reversal.
Your father has a halachic question- you probably learnt it 3 years ago. Your mother keeps asking you what kapitol is numer 49, and yet you need to keep telling her that 49 is nummerically mem-tes... she just doesn't get it. You have to be the one to explain why you won't allow certain things in the home. While your parents might be so liberal with what you do, you need to set the boundaries of what you feel is "kosher" or "trieff".
Do you look up to your parents?
Without a doubt. Perhaps even more so because of their life changes etc... and yet? It's just not the same atmosphere.
It's learning how to sing Uncle Moishy songs when you're 16 baby-sitting or helping at a rally rather than when you're 4 watching the rally.
It's the difference of growing up knowing all the small nuances of from life, or having to learn them all from the begining.
I'm the latter catagory. BT family, and b"H i've been through "the system" since 2nd grade... doing all the good and right things, going to the right places, working in the right mosdos. To call myself BT? Just doesn't fit. To call myself FFB? Nope.
No, none of these labels can be branded accross my forehead...
Aren't labels for t-shirts anyways?
That is the beauty of where a BT child/early teen stands. We can go in any direction we choose... and yet can we ever really choose at all?
If everything is in truth Basheret, just a result of HP with our hishtadlus, then more than choosing, we are destined. Destined to marry who we are meant to marry. Whether or not the shadchan thinks that the home life will match. Whether or not people will talk about what a strange shidduch it is. Whether or not it makes sense to anyone else.
Hashem runs the world.
He puts you where you're meant to be. It's what you do with it that makes all the difference.
BS"D
PS-
On the subject of divorce (as discussed above)...
No matter how a person may not have been "affected" by it, it is still a totally different upbringing.
For example, coming from a b"H "married" home, how can you expect someone to begin to fathom how it must be to have two homes, to see a parent dating someone else, to be brought up with two different mindsets/philosophies/goal, ambitions?
Of course you can group up in either home and turn out the same way, yet would you be able to really undertand the other person?
The biggest proof I have of this is quite personal. The way I grew up, in a so-to-speak "married" home, I don't know any other method of marriage then "sticking together no matter what". I can't imagine c'v my parents not together. It would rip me apart in millions of shreds. I think a lot of "married family" kids would agree with me on this.
That is why I (and most likely others) can't begin to fathom how you honestly feel you were not emotionally scarred from your parents divorce.
This very mindset boggles me to no end.
I don't know if I'm clear on this or not... But basically, "married" kids, see divorce as the end of everything, and you dont (if anything you take it and make it something higher and greater-like the post about the diamond with the crack and making it a rose).
How do you expect and "married" girl to understand where you're coming from, if you really don't feel that it emotionally scarred you? That very mindset is what makes so much of a differnce.
In anycase, after taking over your blog (sorry about that...) hatzlocha b'kol, kasiva v'chasima tova, and like most of your blog fans, looking forward to seeing your name on shmais under "new engagement!" b"H soon.
Thank you, "me".
"Articulation" may not be one of my better talents.
I disagree, being born is an incredibly traumatic experience -one so strong that the Rebbe once said it was the reason why babies cry so much . . . they've been ripped out of the peace an serenity of the womb, where they were taught Torah by angels, and thrust into a world of klipah and concealment!
Thank G-d I grew up in a loving home, with two parents that cared about me. ME, do you think that at the ages of 3, 6 or 11 I could fathom a divorce, that I could see it any other way? Passerby, do you think I didn't experience good times with my family? Fishing with my father, throwing a ball with him? Family bike trips and camping trips? Going to museums together? Meals together, with laughter and love? Do you think I didn't see love between my parents? Their marriage was also beshert -azei zogt Toras Emes v'toras chaim Moed Katan daf Yud Ches Amud Beis- they had free will and chose to do what they later chose to do, but the love was there. Go ask my mother next time you see her. Do you think I didn't see the love between my grandparents? Do you think I haven't spent time living by shluchim? Seeing how a frum family works together? Ask Rabbi Krinsky in Vilna -I lived in his house for over four months.
Do you think afterwords, for whatever reason it happened (Which, I hope you realize many many divorces are not due to vice or abuse -so please don't even go there), I now view it as a viable option to my marriage? How self-righteous of you (I mean 'you' here the same way you meant it)!
[Just to through a point out there, to be the devils advocate, there are many Frum families out there that do not get divorced until after the last child -if at all- so as not hurt their children's shiduchim . . . Do you think growing up in such toxic environment is preferable? I am not the Aibershter, but were it not for what happened I don't now if I would have become frum.]
Passerby, I complain about this because it hurts me -it hurts me to the very core! It is like a dagger to my heart -slowly being pressed deeper into the chambers of my soul. People that I trusted, that I looked up to, that I helped, that I taught their children and did favors for, think that suddenly now -after knowing me for years- I am some how scarred. Don't quote the Bard to me that "Me thinks he doth protest too much." For I will return to you with, l'havdil elef havdolos, the Rebbe -"Ven s'tut vei, shrayt men!"
I am mature about the situation. I understand that it can lead to negative effects on a person's life . . . But I encourage you to read my post on the subject. But I also no myself, and there are those who love and care about me and know me as well, and they can give eidus as to who I am. Problems exist, but making a rule out of it is wrong.
It is not a red flag -the very fact that I became frum, that I went through yeshivah, that I have a mashpia, that I go on mivtzoyim and have many shluchim that are very happy with the work I've done for them, that I've run messibos Shabbos and camps and the children there look up to me, that I get along well with my friends and that they think I am healthy -then there should be no doubt to my character! What we have here is not a Red Flag, it is a Red Herring. It is horrid ignorance that flies in the face of Torah! Passerby, I do not know who you are, you know who I am. Perhaps if I knew then I would not speak so boldly -but I can say that I understood your argument from the beginning, it is the same drivel used to bring hate, discord and sinos chinom that others ignorantly spout. I am sorry for speaking so harshly, but as I said, it is betrayal that goes beyond words. Look me in the eyes and tell me that there is problem with me . . . Say it to my face and do not cringe -if you have even a human soul, not even a Jewish soul, but a human one, you won't be able to.
ME -when I write that I went through the system I mean that I am up to par with bochurim who were born into this. I can learn, if I have a question, b''h many times I can answer it, I know where to look if I do not know, and I know when to ask a Rav. I can learn a blat gemara with my son, and know which page to turn to in the siddur. I brought many examples of people who did not grow up in such a 'sevivah' (if you will "Hoben zei nit gehodavet in a chissidishe, un efsher afilu, mit etleche, aza frumme shtub) and today we swear by their names and the mesiras nefesh they went through (Has anyone ever looked into if the children of survivors in Lubavitch, of those who went through Communist Russia, or secular America, go the therapy they needed? I believe that we all had the same therapy -the divrei chassidus of Nasi Doreinu!)
I run the risk of making you think that I'm an angry person, ch"v, that I am bitter or the like. You should know nothing is further from the truth. But as well, you should know that while I may not come from Gezhe Chabad, of my Great Grandparents half of them (Lightstone, Potika and Burns) came from Kotzker Chassidim (The others were Chasidei Belz, Chernobyl, Ingerishe and Sefardim). If there is any proof of the deeds of our ancestors somehow being passed down through our DNA, then rest assured the blood of Kotzk flows through me. To me EMES is tantamount to all - at least in this case -an intellectual conversation. That is why I have gone on with all of this. It is why I became frum, why I will continue to be, and why in the end I feel I will overcome this garbage.
Sof davar hakol nishma is hoelokim yira vees mitzvosov shemor ki zeh kol hoodom.
Work on your character and let it shine. Allow the brilliance of heart and mind to combine and blind the world. Let your future accomplishments negate un-accomplishments of past.
There is an elite and Robin Hood was a short-lived hero. Do not martyr yourself over a victimless cause. The fairy tales of tommorow may mention only the “bandit” side.
Martyr yourself, rather, to the painful process of introspection. Ask of yourself. You will never receive answers to all your questions. Your post, comments and blog are all questions. Do not scream.. Mental retardation bloodies your head on the wall. Ven es tut veh shrait men. Scream when you must, but let it not be heard. Introspection takes a toll on the heart and the screams will never truly be heard. Martyr yourself to the future rather than the past. When soldiers run to their destiny in search of triumph they scream. And they do battle. There are wounds and lifeblood is lost; you are weakened.
Shlomo chose not to battle. He allowed the magnificance of self to negate the need for the screams of battle. It is his days we yearn to return to. Avodah besimcha is pretty close. Be happy about working on yourself. You WILL change a lot in the process. There is a need for laughter rather than anguished screams.
I refuse to believe that the majority of chabad will allow questions of past to cast a pallor over a shining character. I do believe, however, that all questions, no matter what they may be, absolutely have to be asked. Any qualm, every butterfly, should be quelled. When the right person is finally blinded by your kindness and wonderful personality, the butterflies will stop.
You do not have to go to task any more than a “frum at birth” bochur. They got married when they too saw the beayty in each other. They did not have an easier time at it because of their status. Only because of their simplicity of mind and action.
Your words in this comment are far more appreciated . . . though I still take issue with certain aspects.
-It is not a victimless cause . . . If a person is made miserable, even temporary, then there is a victim. I am aware of my flaws and try to work on them. I am only Human -so I have my ups and downs- the ending has not yet been written, and I have no doubt that I will be triumphant in the end of this epic poem.
All valid questions must be asked -not petty and insulting ones. Someone once asked me in about thirty (if not more!) different ways if a good friend of mine was abusive (Is he normal? Is he abusive? Is he violent? Did he get along well with his sister? His mother? Is there something wrong with him? Does he take medication? Are you sure? Are there any red flags? -every single one of these, and many more were asked about the guy!) It was, to be frank, repulsive to have to be subjugated to the spiritual equivalent of seeing my friend be given a body cavity search.
If the evidence is clearly there, then anything else is cruel.
If someone doesn't want to look into me because I have bad hair, a weird face, or I blog -that's one thing. But if the assume that there's something wrong b/c of these other factors -that's cruel. It's happened several times to me. Yes the aibershter is just sifting through the sand for a diamond -but I wish there was some other reason out there.
If you mean majority as in 90% even 70% -I am in agreement with you. But I feel that the number must be uncomfortably close to 60%. Many people out there may not want to admit it to themselves, but the proof is in the pudding. Even if the number is only 25%, one in four is far far too large for a group that prides itself for its ahavas yisroel and non-judgmental nature.
Adaraba -puk chazi mai ama devar! If you can prove me wrong, I'll be more then happy.
There is a supposed 'shidduch' crisis out there -if this issue would be addressed then I feel we would be a long way towards fixing it.
I will not martyr for the truth, but nor will I deny it.
I'll continue to work on myself, and do what I can.
In the meantime I must resign myself to another kotzker vart:
Der emes ligt in drerd
BS"D
I believe that we all had the same therapy -the divrei chassidus of Nasi Doreinu!)
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This says it all. Whatever our pasts, we have now accepted and embraced a present that is bigger and more powerful than our past and able to overcome whatever negative may have happened that was beyond our control, or even mistakes we ourselves made.
Sadly, I agree re the 60% - it is just that years ago it was 90% so this is a big improvement. In a generation it will be way below 50% especially as Dor Yeshorim expands what it can test for and some inbreeding will be stopped for medical reasons.
Mottel, I do not know you I was talking in a general sense. You have many valid points but still need to understand the others view and not get hurt. I am around many children of divorce and I see a certain thread that they all share and it affects their future. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU HAVE ISSUES, or are not healthy, by golly, I don't even know you personally.
And I said, that I think everyone should have some counseling before getting married.
I JUST WANT YOU TO SEE THE OTHER SIDE!!! And when you do, you will not be hurt. Poor you.
May you soon be laughing at all of this...
ps. Sorry if I offended you.
I'm sorry if I offended you . . .
I hope you still stop by here.
If you feel that everyone should go through counseling before marriage, then I am with you 100% -it is a big step in life, and more ought to be done to prepare people -regardless of background.
I see their argument, I choose to differ for the reasons lifted above -and while I must accept, live with, and try to understand it, I do not feel that it is right (and thus would be eilu v'eilu divrei elokiem etc)
I'm tired of this conversation. Let's move on to better things.
BS"D
After being away from a computer all day, I came to see the responses. I apologize for bringing up a topic you wished to close, but I feel that what I said was completely misunderstood...
Firstly, in terms of a BT home-- you are from one, and B"H your children are not. You are b"H going to be the father with the answers. I was saying that where you come from is different. If anything, that makes your learning, your knowledge, and your Chassidus so much more real.
Second of all, one of the most stable, well-rounded, and truly normal people I know happens to be from a divroced home (she also happens to be your sister... :) Children of a divorce are still normal, I'm the last one to argue that. In any event, I was not in any way saying that you grew up without love, good mmemories, etc. What I was saying is that coming ffrom a non-divorced home, I'm amazed that a person's life can continue and be "normal". I feel that c'v if i was in youur shoes, my life would be shattered... I have a cousin going through a divorce, and his 7 year old daughter is suffering to no end. She's surrounded with love, but she is still suffering- immensly.
perhaps like all life events it makes you stronger. What I was getting at though, was that it is the very fact that it is such a "life event", that other's can't always understand. Having not been through the situation, we are b"H naive in this...
It's a naivity that cannot grow up and become knowledge unless experienced, and some are b"H okay without having to marry someone who understands them... others are not.
In any case, b"H only simcha v'brocha :)
Mottel: I have much to add to this topic, especially being a "victim" of divorce. I'll suffice with just a little because I need to get back to saving some imaginary woman from bankruptcy ...
No doubt there are emotional "scars" on every child of divorce. It hurts to be subjected to the arguments and the process parceled with divorce. It's hurts and outrages children when their parents are divorced. It makes them not want to be social.
The problem with people is that they have the tendency to judge people's reaction to divorce with an objective standard: was he/she affected? This, they assume quite wrongfully, is dispositive of character and emotions. They apply a standard that he/she must have been affected permanently by the divorce because everybody is permanently affected by divorces.
The notion that someone is "scarred" is a very thoughtless and primitive argument. They fail to realize that there are additional subjective elements which actually determine character. They don't consider that people have the tendency to mature over time, especially as time separates them from the emotions of the divorce. They factor out that individuals can will their lives to be different from that of their parents They don't believe that wounds can heal ...
My point is that although children are affected by divorces, the stigma that's been attached to all of them (by people who think they can grasp a individual's emotions without a subjective understanding) is unfounded.
I know that you closed the topic, but I really feel like I have to add my take on things.
I understand why you would feel slighted that your special circumstances are causing people to second guess you for shidduchim. As someone who became religious as a young teenager and went through frum institutions, I know that there was always this feeling like no matter how integrated I became, I wasn't really fully accepted the way an FFB/insider would be. For shidduchim particularly I felt like things would be difficult, and that would also be the test somehow of how these people really felt about me, and felt how unfair it was that in all likelihood I would be seen as lacking something huge that I could never compensate for. Maybe I'll be talking past you here since our situations may be different, but I sort of came to this realization at a certain point that it really didn't matter. If my contribution to the Lubavitch world, my status as a functioning, sincere, and perfectly marriageable Lubavitcher, my average childhood surrounded with love - if all these things were secondary to the fact that for some reason my neshama needed to find Yiddishkeit and Lubavitch on my own - these are NOT the people I want to be arranging my marriage for me, or being my in-laws. Again this advice, or whatever it is, take it at face value: I'm not yet married. And my personal decision has been to tell friends and shadchanim that I'm looking for a BT. Yes, the culture of my teenage years match up very well with a born and bred Lubavitcher. But I feel like maybe I will have more in common with the person who became frum a few years ago, who found Yidishkeit for themselves and forged their own path with it, and who is also seen by those who see things somewhat superficially as being in some sort of different and lacking level because of all that. I don't know. I just wanted to share with you some of my thoughts about this, because over the years they've sort of developed to this, and I don't know if that's something that's helpful to hear or not. And good luck man, you're a great guy, and you're going to have a great marriage.
-Nemo: Well put.
-Anon: Thanks for the input! I'm not picky about how things will end up . . . I just don't like the idea of discrimination -what will be, will be.
-Nemo: Hogwash
-Anon: Well put.
Anon2 -Why is Nemo's stuff hogwash?
While Anon was far more eloquent, Nemo in many ways coincided with me.
You cannot let other peoples close-minded and idiotic behavior to upset you. You have to realize your own strengths and talents and be proud of who you are. G-d is in control and He will not let these peoples stupidity to affect you. You deserve the best and you just ahve to keep on doing your thing and learning and growing. Sorry, this is all kind of redundant but just wanted to leave some words of hope.Have a blessed New Year.
Thank you very much. May all the blessings come for all of us!
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